The American Mind

>>It wasn’t smart politics for Howard to say what he did.

I gotta disagree. I’d rather a guy/gal lay the truth out than play nice when the stakes are such. Plus, as you’ve noted, the double standard applies, so why the heck not? Let ‘er rip.

All one need do is review Obama’s IL voting record (that is, when he actualy took a stand on something) and understanding of what Howard was talking about is gained.

p.s. Sean, have you come across my “contact TAM” message?

To Australian voters it may be good politics, but in international relations it’s not as wise. That’s why despite the popularity Donald Rumsfeld earned with his “Old Europe” comment President Bush hasn’t antagonized France, Germany, etc. publicly.

A problem with politicians is they get namby-pamby with their words. Howard’s bluntness is refreshing. But such talk isn’t always the wisest when working with other leaders. Since Democrats control Congress it’s best not to completely antagonize them.

So…you’re saying that a member of the Labour Party saying “The Democrats are our sister party, so we were happy when they won” is equivalent to Australia’s PM saying “Al Qaeda is rooting for Barack Obama.”

You’re stretching, dude.

Not that i care about what Howard said. Any “The Left wants Al Qaeda to win” rhetoric is ridiculous and anyone who believes such inflammatory silliness should have there credibility called into question.

By the way, Obama’s response to that was perfect–the whole “I’m flattered that one of Bush’s pals singled me out to attack.”

>>>To Australian voters it may be good politics,

From what I understand he’s not all that popular with ‘is mates and may lose re-election later this year. But again, this has nothing to do with some girlish popularity game.

Consider that Howard was directly addressing Obama’s proposal of a full retreat deadline; there is absolutely nothing at all wrong with suggesting that Osama would love Obama in the Whitehouse… because it’s a truism you cannot deny.

>>Since Democrats control Congress it’s best not to completely antagonize them.

ohfercrissakes! Screw that. Quite the opposite: now is the BEST time to show the people exactly what they voted for, or in this specific case, what they might vote for. How is that antagonistic?

DJ sez….

>>>“Al Qaeda is rooting for Barack Obama.”

…and then…

>>>“The Left wants Al Qaeda to win”

I hope you understand the difference of those two phrases that you yourself wrote, and that the former is what Howard alluded to.

Lastly:
The Best Of the Howard/Obama feud came from Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs:

“Even Republicans … know that more of the same is only going to attract more terrorists to Iraq and make our country less safe.” [CNN]

lemme see if I got this straight… the Islamofascist go to Iraq, concentrating their time, money, and efforts there where we can actually see them every once in a while and blow them up and shoot them dead makes the US homeland less safe.

This is what Obama believes.

And he is the Great Savior and we should vote for him.

~sigh~

I hope you understand the difference of those two phrases that you yourself wrote, and that the former is what Howard alluded to.

True. I may have “misspoken” a little. Usually the two statements are interchangeable when coming from war supporters, but we’re discussing Howard and not “the right,” so my bad.

lemme see if I got this straight… the Islamofascist go to Iraq, concentrating their time, money, and efforts there where we can actually see them every once in a while and blow them up and shoot them dead makes the US homeland less safe.

Every moment we continue to spend in Iraq breeds brand new terrorists. Maybe not new terrorists that will try to attack us in 5 years, but in 20, when they’re grown up? Absolutely. There are children in Iraq right now, as our occupation enters its fourth year, that have no memory of an Iraq with Saddam in control…just the quagmire that they know now, which their parents are likely telling them was a result of American invasion.

I don’t wanna ramble for too long, but to be brief as possible: i understand the right’s idealistic view that once Iraq is stable, those kids will be happy and realize all the wonderful things America did to provide their contry with liberty, democracy, etc. etc. I get that. But if Iraq is stablized, i’d put the odds at “very high” that Iraq’s business infrastructure will be seeping in American businesses, American cultural influence, and other signs of American “meddling” that Islamic Iraq will continue to resent, leading to the creation of more terrorists with the same “get America out of the Middle East” goals that Al-Qaeda have always had.

And that’s just my best-case scenario!

MjM and Sean–

A friend just pointed out this article about the kid who just shot up the shopping mall in Utah:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_eu/utah_shooting_bosnia

Avdic speculated the teen had been traumatized by what he saw and experienced as a child of war. Up to 200,000 people were killed in the 1992-95 war in Bosnia, and 1.8 million others lost their homes.

“I’m convinced the war did this,” Avdic said of the rampage in Utah. “There cannot be any other reason.”

THIS is the sort of thing that anti-war folks are talking about when they say that the Iraq war is making us less safe at home. Kids being raised in a war-torn environment are going to have a hell of a time growing up as well-adjusted people.

It’s not as cut and dry as “fight them over there so we don’t have to over here.” Think about it.

Obama’s response to that was perfect–the whole “I’m flattered that one of Bush’s pals singled me out to attack.”

No way. The best Obama response was when he said that if Howard was so keen on the War in Iraq, maybe Australia could cough up a few more than 1000 troops. Snap!

DJ sez…
>>>Every moment we continue to spend in Iraq breeds brand new terrorists.

Really? Then what bread them prior?

Your false assumption is that new terrorists would not breed like rabbits if we had no presence in Iraq.

Get something straight: Islam breeds terrorists. Two thousand years of Islam By The Sword ought to tell you that.

Osama hisself began his career despising his own parents’ life long before America became his “race card”.

>>Avdic speculated…

Are you serious? You equate one nutcase to a 9-11 Jihad conspiricy?

Yer on. I’ll take that bet anytime.

And sure, war is hell. But I don’t recall Jewish, British, or Polish chl’n growing up and blasting the hamlet to pieces after WWII.

Really? Then what bread them prior?

A fervent, fundamentalist view of a religion (Islam) combined with what is (perhaps justly) seen as American meddling in their local affairs.

Do you seriously think the towers fell because “the terrorists hate our freedom?”

I understand that it’s convenient and comfortable to merely shift all the blame onto “other people,” but unless our government and (even more so) corporations realize that they can’t just impose their western values and companies onto other areas willy-nilly just because they have oil, this will continue. (And yes, i realize that Arab governments and companies are complicit in this too.)

Osama bombed the towers in part because of what he perceives as American meddling in Saudi Arabia. Future terrorists will be bred from American meddling in Iraq. Count on it.

Are you serious? You equate one nutcase to a 9-11 Jihad conspiricy?

If you’re not interested in thinking in a more nuanced fashion than just “us good, Islam bad,” then we have nothing more to discuss.

I don’t recall Jewish, British, or Polish chl’n growing up and blasting the hamlet to pieces after WWII.

Now who’s taking big leaps? The kid in Utah didn’t “blow up” anything, except five people. I didn’t even say he did it out of some anti-American sentiment. That’s probably you projecting your “liberals always want to blame America” prejudices onto me (but then, i’m speculating there).

Bottom line: The children of Iraq are going to grow up in a war-torn region seeped in a radical religious fundamentalism that will combine to breed new anti-American terrorists. No amount of terrorist-killing and imposed democracy will eliminate radical Islamic beliefs in jihad, martyrdom, and the belief in a “one true” religion. Living among Christian fundamentalists in our great Democracy has taught me that.

>>>A fervent, fundamentalist view of a religion (Islam) combined with what is (perhaps justly) seen as American meddling in their local affairs.

I see. You don’t like Ronald McDonald so you go blow up 3,000 innocent people. Reasonable, yes?

And therefore we must must also perhaps justly blame Spaniards for Terik’s 7th century conquest of Spain.

sheesh.

>>> Do you seriously think the towers fell because “the terrorists hate our freedom?”

Gee. Ya think?

PRECISELY what bin Laden and Al-Zaquari have advocated. PRECISELY what is taught in Islamic schools from Riyadh to Damascus to Tehran.

Or do you not quite understand the meaning of this Jihad?

>>> If you’re not interested in thinking in a more nuanced fashion than just “us good, Islam bad,” then we have nothing more to discuss.

I’ll give you nuance….

Which kid has a better chance:

1) An Iraqi who witnesses a war and (unless democrats succeed) gains freedom from oppression with the help of Americans, or,

2)an Afghani who continually witnesses beheadings, amputations by sword, and other forms of public torture – on perhaps his mother, even, should she step out of line a little – and lives under the rule of a Taliban-like regime?

Which kid is more likely to become a militant Islamist?

>>>Now who’s taking big leaps?
It was you who attempted to suggest that being witness to war caused this kid to go off. I merely offered examples which suggest that your asumptions may be wrong or at least not quite as “dangerous” as you attempted to make them.

>>>Bottom line: The children of Iraq are going to grow up in a war-torn region seeped in a radical religious fundamentalism that will combine to breed new anti-American terrorists.

Bottom Line: Without Americans finishing the job the children of Iraq will grow up in in a country seeped in a backwater radical religious fundamentalism to breed brand new anti-American and anti-Sunni and anti-Kurd and anti-Shiite and, not to mention, anti-Isaeli, terrorists.

All that may occur anyway, but at least we, more than any, gave them a chance to step into to the 21 century.

Ya know… become civilized, and all that.

I see. You don’t like Ronald McDonald so you go blow up 3,000 innocent people. Reasonable, yes?

*sigh*

Until you understand the difference between trying to understand behavior (which i’m doing) and condoning it (which i’m not), we’re done.