The American Mind

No, they are not backing a draft. It’s a stupid scare tactic. Oooga! booga! draft!

Now every draft age kid stampedes for Canada like lemmings. Not.

I think you’re misunderstanding the typical argument on the left for reinstating the draft, Sean. Simply put, if more Americans were at risk to serve in this stupid war on a non-volunteer basis, more people would work harder to end it, or at least think twice about another one in the future.

All the rich chickenhawk Republicans would come up with ways to get their kids deferments anyway, so the argument sort of falls flat.

By the way, i’d love to hear your take on why the smear is worthless. It’s awfully easy to vocally support a war when you’re in no danger to serve in it.

And its really easy to show most liberals do not have a clue how poorly conscript armies fight.

See the left does not want a American military that could actually win a war. They want it to be some sort of social experiment. I am old enough to have served with Vietnam era vets when I joined the Navy in 86 I heard the stories about how messed up the US military was during the draft era. My father was a draftee he spent 3 years in the army and even he admitted the Military I served in was light years ahead of the one he served in. Do not get me wrong the majority of the draftee’s served with honor but in modern history it is the professional armies that win wars. My guess is if you actually looked at the numbers the Military will be very white and very Southern and Midwestern when I served 95% of the service members I knew voted for the GOP. Not many of us were from “money” families but I knew a few but in the end where you came from didn’t matter. I intend to push both of my sons to do at least one tour I believe they owe this nation that. So your draft threat is hollow to real patriotic families like mine my sons would be the 4th generation to wear the uniform.

But if you bring back your draft lets do it right no deferments for college or being a conscientious objector(they can be medics and not carry a gun) Lets see some of these pasty ass liberals climb out of their coffee shops and go hump with a 80lb ruck on their back right next to those rich Republican kids

If want a draft you better be ready for your liberal asses to get drafted also.

Lets see if the Kos kids are so fired up if there is a chance they will be getting off the Bus and having their heads shaved. I doubt they will be in favor of a true random draft where they might get caught in the net

Oh and I am sure no Rich Hollywood liberals would work to get their spawn a deferment.

And its really easy to show most liberals do not have a clue how poorly conscript armies fight.

Could they be doing any worse than our guys over there right now? I mean, what exactly is the difference between a soldier who half-asses it because he doesn’t want to be in Iraq, and one who half-asses it because he doesn’t want to be a soldier at all?

I mean, what would be different, exactly? Are you saying that a conscript army would, for instance, gang-rape a 16-year-old girl to death and then murder her whole family to cover it up?

Oh, wait.

See the left does not want a American military that could actually win a war.

Funny, I remember this little conflict called “WWII”, which we won with a conscript army.

If want a draft you better be ready for your liberal asses to get drafted also.

I don’t want a draft. I just want people like Sean Hackbarth and Jay Reding and other yellow elephants to stop playing fast and loose with other people’s lives.

That’s a damning criticism that the right has no answer for. It’s ridiculous for the celebrities of the right to esteem military service at the same time they’re openly dismissive of the idea of serving, themselves.

Chet thanks for proving a point that when most of you liberals say you support the troops you are lying through your teeth you comments show how most liberals actually feel about the US Military

I love how you bring up one small group that was tired and convicted for that rape and murder what about the blitzkrieg campaign that that army waged to capture Baghdad weeks earlier than all the experts thought it could be done. Yes there were not assaults or attacks on civilians in the entire history of the US Military guess what your World War soldiers shot prisoners and committed rapes and looted on a scale that would shock you.

Chet how much have you actually read about our Army in World War 2 while it got the job done it was not the juggernaut it has been made out to be

I love how you are honest at least about your feelings for US Military

Chet I would love to see you tell some of the kids humping in Iraq or Afghanistan that they are not better than a bunch of draftees.

The next time you hear any liberal saying they support the troops dont you believe it.

Wow…enough misinformation on both sides here to stagger the imagination.

WSB - How badly conscript armies fight? Are you kidding me? My father was conscripted and fought in WWII on Guadalcanal and Pelaliu. My conscripted uncle fought - and died - in the Battle of the Bulge. Our problems in Vietnam with a “conscripted” army were trivial when compared with the stupidity of the leadership and interference of the politicians.

Chet - Put down your discredited TNR and get a grip on reality. When given correct leadership, our troops have done incredibly well in Iraq. Even the Dems have come to the same realization. As for Sean “playing fast and loose with other people’s lives”, man, get a grip. Sean hasn’t forced a person to enlist in the military - last I saw, despite Rangel’s best efforts - enlistment is still voluntary.

Dear Chet,

I am a veteran. I enlisted. I am conservative.

The all volunteer military is a Good Thing. It is better than a conscript army. One of the reasons for that is a conscript army occasionally ended up with someone like you.

Um. Guys?

The issue isn’t whether or not an all-volunteer army is “better” than a conscript army or not. That’s not why reinstating the draft comes up as a debate topic.

Let’s walk through this. People who are against the war typically have been against it since it was started, because they believe that it was started under false pretenses (i.e. Saddam has WMD’s, he’s a threat, he helps Al-Qaeda, etc.). (Also note i’m not interested in arguing that point to death for the millionth time…just trying to help those on the pro-war side of the fense see where we’re coming from.)

Therefore, the line of thinking is that if a draft still existed, and more ordinary people were at risk of serving in any war that is declared (which this one wasn’t, but whatever), then our government would be much more careful about authorizing force in the future–in other words, they’d actually look for some concrete proof of a threat before invading another county and destabalizing the region.

That’s definitely the cliffs notes version, but it’s a far cry from “a conscripted army would be better.” Whether it’s better or worse isn’t the point. Look, i understand that from the “conservative” point of view (the “conservative” view that justifies billions in defense spending while ringing up defecits, anyway–how is spending money that we don’t have “conservative” again? Sorry, tangent), the war is just and good because you think Saddam was a threat, because he really had WMDs and they were shipped to Syria before the war, whatever. But to those of us who believe our brave men and women were sent to die based on a lie, that aspect of what we believe trumps all. At least, it trumps it with me.

Mind you, i personally am not for reinstating the draft by any means. I’m just trying to explain the argument as i understand it. So, WSB, please direct your “you liberals” venom to the straw men you have constructed with your diatribes, please.

An explained false argument is still false, dj.

Sean hasn’t forced a person to enlist in the military - last I saw, despite Rangel’s best efforts - enlistment is still voluntary.

I highly doubt that anybody enlisted in the armed forces with the expectation that they would be giving their lives so that Bush wouldn’t look weak, or whatever the Iraq War Justification of the Week is this time.

Sure, somebody that signs up is, hopefully, aware of the fact that they could be killed in combat. I don’t think anybody enlists with the expectation that they’ll be killed meaninglessly.

One of the reasons for that is a conscript army occasionally ended up with someone like you.

If I didn’t think that the armed forces was better off without me in it, I would have enlisted myself.

They do a job that I can’t do. In return, I don’t send them, poorly equipped, into a meaningless meat grinder to die pointlessly.

It’s a courtesy that I wish conservatives would start extending our men and women in uniform. They’re dying from all the “support” conservatives have for the military.

DJ - Your explanation is held by some of the pro-draft advocates, but nowhere near all. Many believe a conscript army will better manage troop levels. Many believe a conscript army will provide a more even racial balance in the armed forces (theoretically, that’s where Rangel is coming from). Pro-draft neocons want to increase the size of the armed forces considerably to allow for greater projection of force.

Chet - You’re still in meme land. I’m still waiting for an explanation of how Sean plays fast and loose with other people’s lives. Since your view is that this is an illegal war, you’re in essence accusing Sean of aiding and abetting murder. You have anything to back up such a serious accusation, or is this the usual left wing “I love the First Amendment until they say anything I don’t like” situation.

I’m still waiting for an explanation of how Sean plays fast and loose with other people’s lives.

We do live in a democracy, don’t we? See if you can’t figure it out, then.

Since your view is that this is an illegal war, you’re in essence accusing Sean of aiding and abetting murder.

Wait, what? Where did I ever say this was an “illegal” war?

I guess you got so tired of grappling with my points, you decided to wrestle with strawmen, instead.